Can someone enlighten me on the UFS mounts discussion?

[joeymc]

What's the story? Did they make them too close together? Anyone can give me the short version. Did they fuck up with the placement?

Do you ever think about how skates would feel really good with an h-block mount that actually mounts into the boot as a central 3rd mount?

I'm excited for my Bont skates to come because they have a 3 point mounting system.

[jakeordie]

In the past I've felt the mounts are too close together to allow for the perfect groove with flat setups. Take the average foot size (US9) and corresponding average wheelbase (250mm), centre the mounts between outer & middle wheels and you get 167mm.....UFS does not account for splitting middle wheels. I think this limits the split for flat setups with the lowest possible stance height. Today's frames are proof, in order to stretch the split to 130mm or more they sacrifice the lower stance height.

I think the mounts could be stretched to 180mm and still accommodate a small frame of 235-240mm wheelbase. This frame wouldn't have the 130+mm split, but the new standard would allow for an ideal flat setup without eliminating short frames. Another way of looking at it today's big-split frames (Element, SlimLine) could be made lower, and lowest frames (GC, Fifty-50) could make splits & grooves ideal for flat.

I've considered some different opinions & new possibilities since, I'm interested to see where this thread goes.

[justinthursday]

I ride 135mm frames so i would like the split to only be slightly bigger

ive alwasy wanted a middle mount
there just hasnt been a good way to do it myself since all frames are hollow right there,,
K2 knew what was up!

[zacharias]

I am fine with where the mounts are...I think the problem is frame companies have poorly designed "flat" frames. They offer horrible h-blocks with litte wheel protection. They try to compensate with widening the inner split but to do so they add frame height. If companies would stop making the h-blocks as close to the boot as possible we would not need such a wide split.

IMO 1st Gen Ables are the best frames for flat. The h-block position is perfect. I bet they would of sold more frames if they came out with both rounded and triangular h-blocks. If they were smart they would bring back the original frames. :wink:

[justinthursday]

another thing
i think it would be very very easy for a boot company to make adjustable frame mounts
to use a new system as well as the current one

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

another thing
i think it would be very very easy for a boot company to make adjustable frame mounts
to use a new system as well as the current oneyeah it would be now that i think of it

[jakeordie]

another thing
i think it would be very very easy for a boot company to make adjustable frame mounts
to use a new system as well as the current one
The original Metric mounts were flippable, this allowed a short 225mm frame or a split of 120mm for the other lengths.

And Razors has this in the works; http://www.google.com/patents?id=6TYUAAAAEBAJ

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

another thing
i think it would be very very easy for a boot company to make adjustable frame mounts
to use a new system as well as the current one
The original Metric mounts were flippable, this allowed a short 225mm frame or a split of 120mm for the other lengths.

And Razors has this in the works; http://www.google.com/patents?id=6TYUAAAAEBAJ
razors = :shock:
i wonder when those will come out, the patent was issued in 2005

[jomu]

interesting that wagener used a remz shell for the skate diagram

[s.]

interesting that wagener used a remz shell for the skate diagram
its all Sunshine Dist. anyways

[justinthursday]

yea ive seen that patent
im talking even simpler than that hto

[jakeordie]

Here's the drawing I did to show how everything fits together;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/180.png

235mm min wheelbase & 130mm max split, but not together.....unless you skate 52s flat.

[justinthursday]

yes!
how is the actual building of frmaes coming along jake?

[Alex Coe]

the razors thing looks like the kids size gen shell thats adjustable, is it not?

[humphrey]

Here's the drawing I did to show how everything fits together;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/180.png

235mm min wheelbase & 130mm max split, but not together.....unless you skate 52s flat.

produce these, im really digging the wide ass groove

[jakeordie]

the razors thing looks like the kids size gen shell thats adjustable, is it not?
I watched this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG7GKQCEDZ0 and it looks like a different setup to me.



Here's the drawing I did to show how everything fits together;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/180.png

235mm min wheelbase & 130mm max split, but not together.....unless you skate 52s flat.

produce these, im really digging the wide ass groove
Sure thing, what boots you gonna bolt on 'em? :lol:

[Davengo]

Here's the drawing I did to show how everything fits together;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/180.png

235mm min wheelbase & 130mm max split, but not together.....unless you skate 52s flat.

produce these, im really digging the wide ass groove

FUKING FAIL. IF YOU WANT WIDE ASS STUPID GROOVES THEN BUY THE STREAMLINES/XJSJADO FRAMES YOU FUCKING KIKE

[jakeordie]

how is the actual building of frmaes coming along jake?
For now I've taken a different path towards the same end. Oli lined up the opportunity to advise the Powerslide engineers on how to fix the groove for the SlimLine 2. Here's what I sent them;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/SlimLine2.png

I hear they are also modifying the frame like Al has been doing to SlimLine 1s, to allow flat 56s rockered up.

[Chinaski]

Make these!

[justinthursday]

how is the actual building of frmaes coming along jake?
For now I've taken a different path towards the same end. Oli lined up the opportunity to advise the Powerslide engineers on how to fix the groove for the SlimLine 2. Here's what I sent them;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/SlimLine2.png

I hear they are also modifying the frame like Al has been doing to SlimLine 1s, to allow flat 56s rockered up.
i might pay $100 for that frame..

[jomu]

how is the actual building of frmaes coming along jake?
For now I've taken a different path towards the same end. Oli lined up the opportunity to advise the Powerslide engineers on how to fix the groove for the SlimLine 2. Here's what I sent them;

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/SlimLine2.png

I hear they are also modifying the frame like Al has been doing to SlimLine 1s, to allow flat 56s rockered up.
i might pay $100 for that frame..

i might pay £40 for that frame. Although i reckon the groove is too deep/pole like

[jakeordie]

It looks too deep because the shoulders create that illusion. In theory I'd like to make the groove flatter & wider, but it can't be done while keeping 4 wheels on the frame and not eating concrete. I heard what you said before Zacharias, but my opinion is the groove should be as close to the foot as possible (balanced with other variables like wheel size, split etc).

Regardless of how it looks, this groove works for everything except pole-steeze frontsides on real fat round rails.

[zacharias]

My gripe with rockering wheels up is that it makes the sidewalls lower to the ground. Pushing off and low carving now has more chances of slipping out, but it does make cess slides much more natural feeling.

I not to sure about h-blocks as close to the foot as possible. With huge BS plates that come out as far has sole plates it makes it real wacky looking. I like the feeling of getting on top of groove trick and have me knees do the work to get into the BS grove...not just jumping on the grind and tilting my foot a sliver for my bs groove to touch it. The lower h-block could be good for skates like Salo's where your bs groove is basically your foot.

That groove you drew does look good though, I'd try it without a doubt.

[jakeordie]

If you look at the lateral inset, the red arrow indicates where the convex hits 45 degrees.This contacts the ground when the skate is at roughly 45 degrees, ideally before the sole.....it's tricky though, 'cos every boot & wheel is different. I don't want to limit carving angles, but there's no way you're gonna lean your COG that far on aggressive wheels.....really big strides maybe.

I agree about huge BS plates and sad royale angles. But this is not a frame problem, and I don't like compensating for bad design with more bad design. In all honesty, I'm more excited about the Carbon/SlimLine setup than I have been about any skate hardware made in the last decade. The principles of good skate design are being applied.

[joeymc]

Sorry I've been without internet for the past week. Gotta say that Slimline revamp looks pretty damn swell. Like I said before when the angle of the plastic matches the way the wheels wear... You get this great feel when transitioning from a cess slide to a roll. My only question with that frame would be: How would it perform for stair rides?

Hey Jakeordie are you riding the slimlines right now? What length? Do you recommend?

I'm getting a pretty big tax return and I think i'm going to drop some cash on a pair of Carbons to play around with. I'm still a bit worried about the flex factor for my anlkles though.

So when are the second gen slimlines going to be available? Between these and the new fiziks design I'm going to be in heaven for griding with 8 down.

You know what that groove looks really good for? FASTSLIDES! You could angle your foot in a way that would hold your weight a lot better. I'm really glad you got linked into powerslide. Does this mean no frames from you? You're using the design for the slimline?

[jakeordie]

How would it perform for stair rides?
Depends on the skater. When I do stairs I'm on two wheels, weight back so the skate doesn't pitch forward at all. Same with backwards stairs, two wheels no pitching.

At this point I should add that I expect the shoulders to break in according to each skater's style. If you catch on stairs, break it in a bit. If you slip out on strides, break it in a bit. It's 100 times easier to take a little plastic off than it is to add plastic where you need it.


Hey Jakeordie are you riding the slimlines right now? What length? Do you recommend?
I'm on them, more for experimentation than serious skating. I have mediums, the wheelbase is 260ish and a tad long for US9 skates.....but the small has a smaller split so this is the one I wanna play with.


So when are the second gen slimlines going to be available?
I was told hopefully Holiday, but it's too soon for Kizer to even talk final design let alone release dates.


I'm really glad you got linked into powerslide. Does this mean no frames from you? You're using the design for the slimline?
I'm welching on the Core walls, yes. I want The Industry to see how popular flat can be when they get the frame right, and how styles will change. Kizer has more power to do this than me making 10 pair of Core walls a week. I have bigger ideas I'd like to put into action, Powerslide can have the groove design.....I just pray they don't half-ass it to try & make everyone happy.

[zacharias]

I would love to see more people start skating flat. I feel a flat revival maybe necessary to push the sport into other territories. We will need help from the companies though.

[jakeordie]

I understand the shortcomings of skating flat vs. anti-rocker, you can't expect people to skate something that decreases their abilities. I wanna see what happens when there's a flat frame that doesn't require giving up any tricks or spots. Conversely, are there any tricks that can be done on flat setups and not on anti-rocker?

What I hope changes is that styles get faster, smoother, and skaters integrate rolling & carving more into their trick vocabs. I'm not hoping for new tricks as much as I am hoping for new attitudes, new perspectives on what's cool & good on skates. RB has made ground on this, but SlimLine 2s and Fiziks 2s are gonna do so much more than Switch frames.

[joeymc]

There are some precision rolling/turning/carving tricks that aren't very possible in anti/flat. Also some more complex stair rides. You COULD do some of these things in anti/flat but they might look and feel a bit weird because your feet would be more stuck to the ground and weight distribution among the wheels would be different.

I think more people using 8 wheels down would push skating away from the linear perspective that a lot of people see it in now. More about in between the tricks than the actual tricks themselves. Some of my personal pet peeves include:

not keeping the fakie on landings, running onto grass or dirt when you could have carved away from it, linking things together in straight lines instead of carves, taking unnecessary strides... and most importantly looking for spots/tricks with grinding in mind instead of rolling.

You're right about stair rides. It is two wheels. Fiziks were the best for stair rides by far. You're so right on the money with the plastic quote.

If you could never use wax again would you still enjoy skating?

[zacharias]

Wax...I just tell people to go faster. :lol:

Toe and heels stalls are more possible in flat than anti-rocker. Flat ground spins, carving bowls, airs, gaps and rolling obscure objects are all easier with flat.

I do not know any spots that I am less likely to skate with a flat setup. The only tricks I find harder are fastslides, puds, and front torque on ledges. Torques take work but FS and Pud are beasts.

I do not think its really a matter of losing tricks but getting used to doing them "proper" without wheel bite.

If I get in a car accident or two I'm not gonna give up drving and start taking the bus.

[zacharias]

side note...Does anyone notice the majority of kids learning to skate on freestyle frames is a lot more sketch than those learning on flat? I think it is better to learn on flat because it forces you to get into the grind instead of slide around on the object like a deer on ice.

[jakeordie]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/Nazi.jpg

[justinthursday]

side note...Does anyone notice the majority of kids learning to skate on freestyle frames is a lot more sketch than those learning on flat? I think it is better to learn on flat because it forces you to get into the grind instead of slide around on the object like a deer on ice.
i hate that every little kid is rocking freestyle frames now doing farves looking straight forwards.
i think most new rollers dont have the leg strength to get low enough to start out skating flat.
Especially with most frames.. 5050s maybe.
I'd like to see most people starting out with urethane antis

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

side note...Does anyone notice the majority of kids learning to skate on freestyle frames is a lot more sketch than those learning on flat? I think it is better to learn on flat because it forces you to get into the grind instead of slide around on the object like a deer on ice.
i hate that every little kid is rocking freestyle frames now doing farves looking straight forwards.
i think most new rollers dont have the leg strength to get low enough to start out skating flat.
Especially with most frames.. 5050s maybe.
I'd like to see most people starting out with urethane antis
believe in me

[zacharias]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/Nazi.jpg

:lol:

[salomonskater]

Could you guys reupload the pics of the first page please? Thanks

And lol at flat-nazism

I also learn my tricks on flat setup but I feel calf pressure when leaning very low.

[jakeordie]

Reupped, and the SL2 is an updated drawing so my apologies if the old text doesn't match the new picture.

[salomonskater]

Reupped, and the SL2 is an updated drawing so my apologies if the old text doesn't match the new picture.

Thanks! That Slimline 2 groove looks really good. Hope these frames come out. And fuck 165mm mounting, for long feet like mine this feels way too centered.

[jakeordie]

fuck 165mm mounting, for long feet like mine this feels way too centered.
Yeah well I've argued for 180mm but it has fallen on deaf ears. I'm happy as I'm gonna get with the SL2 design, hopefully it will get more skaters on flat setups and this'll put pressure on The Industry to make better skates.

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

wait what in this thread is new?

[jakeordie]

wait what in this thread is new?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jakeordie/SlimLine2.png

This drawing is slightly different from the one that was originally embedded.

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

so is kizer gonna follow through with the slimline 2(based on your designs)

[jakeordie]

I hope so, but there's more people than just me advising them and they're a big business so simple changes are never as simple as they seem. That groove is optimised for flat 56s rockered up, and Kizer wants to make the SL2 flat-specific so keep your fingers crossed like I am.

[Mudhut Jollyrancher]

i hope they do that would be great

[salomonskater]

Yeah well I've argued for 180mm but it has fallen on deaf ears. I'm happy as I'm gonna get with the SL2 design, hopefully it will get more skaters on flat setups and this'll put pressure on The Industry to make better skates.

Yeah, instead of just screaming some "support t3h industi3z" the industry should come out with new concepts more often. The only stuff I brough new from a skateshop recetnly are the RB Switch frames and Kizer Elements.

[bobgross]

That design is perfect jake
58mm flat with great wheel protection
the groove does look kinda deep though, and is there any danger of the plastic folding over onto the wheels(where it dips down out of the groove?)

[jakeordie]

Depends on the frame material.....not gonna be a big problem. Small rocks caught maybe.

[tobstah]

Great, I love the slimline 2 designs, the groove looks good and 56s rockered up sounds just about perfect. They should have different sizes than the slimline 1s too, imo. 262mm (or whatever it is exactly) wheelbase on the M slimline feels way too long on my small shell xsjadows.
Right now I'm riding them with 53s rockered up ( I know, lol) and I'm neither faster (because of the smaller and shittier quality wheels I'm using) nor more agile than on size S fluids anti with 58mm outer wheels :( Need to get some decent 55 or 56mm wheels and mod the frame to enable rockering those up.

[jakeordie]

Yeah Al put both those ideas to Kizer, 56 max rockered up and make the M and L a bit shorter. Hopefully they get it done for the SL2.

[salomonskater]

L a bit shorter.


NOOOOO PLEASE DON'T FUCKING DO THIS. PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE

If you find 282mm too long, just get medium! But for me, even 270mm is short!
Generations are growing you know.

[jakeordie]

NOOOOO PLEASE DON'T FUCKING DO THIS.
http://www.ascd.org/ASCD/images/publications/books/marzano2001a_fig1.1.gif

Sorry, that's how it works.

[lim]

side note...Does anyone notice the majority of kids learning to skate on freestyle frames is a lot more sketch than those learning on flat? I think it is better to learn on flat because it forces you to get into the grind instead of slide around on the object like a deer on ice.

You know little kids are going to do whatever it takes to make grinding as easy as possible. What's the point of learning it properly if eventually they're going to switch for anti/freestyle in the long run and get lazy on it anyway?

[Unity Lifestyle]

If there's a good amount of dislike for the UFS setup, why is it still the standard? More generally, if there are designs and/or setups that feel better to skate, why are these designs not being implemented by skate companies?

[marvinc02]

been said before but i'll reiterate. it's cheaper and easier to build off an existing platform, complete format redesign is expensive and not sure if it'll take, and 90% of people who skate don't have a problem with the current system.